Since you appear to value quantity of responses over their content, let me say a third time:

You’re a wrong misinformed spammer.

Since you appear to value quantity of responses over their content, let me say again:

You’re a wrong misinformed spammer.

Since you appear to value quantity of responses over their content, let me say:

You’re a wrong misinformed spammer.

But let’s not clutter this site any more. Feel free to email me your qualifications. tom at merchant911 dot org. At that point, I’d be more than willing to enter into more dialog. I’m sure I don’t know everything there is to know.

To anyone else following this thread, I apologize.

If someone else has my card, my bank will take care of it. It’s not a problem. And yes, it is absolutely “as easy as (I) think” with a debit card. Unlike you, I’m not commenting based on what I “think,” but rather what I “know.” I just don’t need to spam comments sections with links to a web site out of desperation for a traffic leak. For someone who “teaches” others about this subject, you could stand to learn quite a few things about it yourself.

Tom Mahoney has wrapped his tiny mind around more that you might think. I have, after all, been in fraud prevention for a bit over 10 years.

If you choose to sign your card so that it’s a valid card, and not write “see ID” on the back, that’s fine. It’s not only your right, but YOUR contractual obligation. And you would be within your right to report a merchant that asked for more, although I would suggest that it would be bit of an over-reaction which probably would result in nothing but your self-satisfaction. You’d probably be more productive calling it to the attention of store management – it’s more than likely a violation of their policy.

My only point is that, especially in the case of debit cards, if a merchant does ask for an ID, he IS protecting the card holder as well as himself, unless, of course, it’s a counter jocky that is also a thief. Whether or not it’s “contractual” is a separate issue.

You are taking the point of view that it’s YOU that has your card. If someone else had it, you’d be glad the merchant was looking out for you. Maybe you can wrap your mind, or your common sense, around that. You’d be saved a lot of hassle and in the case of a debit card, it ISN’T as easy as you think to get the charges reversed. Your account could be cleaned out.

And I would also point out that nowhere in this thread have I suggested that a merchant SHOULD ask for ID if the card is signed. I’m aware of the contractual agreements. I’m a merchant, both brick and mortar and on-line. I don’t ask for ID unless “See ID” is on the card.

I might suggest that you go to my site and do a bit of homework before you question my integrity, sir. I have well over 4,000 merchant members that would vouch for it. I have taught merchants, fraud prevention specialists, and law enforcement what they can and cannot do to prevent fraud. I got where I am because of my integrity, not in spite of it.

Tom Mahoney, Director
Merchant911, LLC

And that is the point that Tom Mahoney is missing, but maybe contractual obligations just aren’t important to him. That sort of thing requires integrity.

But will it be a good thing when they sell your card information to somebody, and attached to it your driver’s license with your home address, date of birth etc.?

Have the best of both worlds. Sign the card AND write “See ID” on the back. In either case, the chance of a cashier looking at the back are slim.

Making a fake ID is, as you say, fairly simple, but it takes some time. If your card is stolen,chances are the thief is going to use it very quickly and then ditch it.

I’d love to know where you got your statistics on merchants being criminals. Please cite those stats. It’s baloney.

Secondly, with today’s technology it is very easy to quickly make a fake ID. A cashier is most likely going to know if it is real if the ID is a fake of another state. Very few merchants would recognize a fake unless it was the type they have and see every day. Like I said earlier, for years my father’s legal drivers license from New Jersey was a piece of paper with his name, address and a few desceiptive items. These types of basic liscenses are still out there and valid.

Third, statistically speaking, at any given transaction the merchant is more likely to be committing a crime. These people you are trusting to protect you are the most likely, outside of family, to steal your information.

The point that you and others are missing is that it WOULD be for your protection if someone had stolen your card. I’m not understanding why folks don’t get that.

I have not once had the merchant refuse to complete the sale for that. A couple of cashiers have called back to the manager and seem to have been told that it was ok, and finished the transaction. No problem.

I also have noticed a correlation between the type of store and the frequency of being asked for ID. At larger, nationwide chains with (presumably) better training for cashiers I am hardly ever asked for ID. Same for high-volume stores — it slows them down too much.

It seems to happen more at smaller, local chains. I have the feeling it’s not usually policy, but some of the cashiers think they are preventing fraud by asking. Some have told me it’s for MY protection.

Also, I have noticed that there are maximum limits at gas station pumps…doesn’t this violate a rule? You can’t go in to pay for the gas with a signature based transaction either because nobody has any idea how much gas your car will take (assumption is that you are filling the tank which is why the transaction limit is a problem).

You are correct and I believe the same is true with the other brands as well. I apologize for confusion. If you’ve been to my site, you saw that I am primarily in the CNP realm where the merchant, not the issuer, eats the losses.

Lucas’ statement appeared rather broad and gave the impression that merchants were never responsible. As you probably know, that’s only true in the CP world. I should have been more clear.

As to CP merchants being responsible for losses in cases like you described – you are absolutely right. There is simply no excuse for a fraudulent transaction like that to go through. Merchants, CP and CNP should be expected to do due diligence.

I made the suggestion that Discover hold the merchant partially accountable for fraudulent charges. They adamantly refused to force any merchants to pay for any part of the fraudulent charges. My suggestion came on the heels of my mother’s wallet being stolen and her Visa card WITH HER PICTURE ON IT was used to purchase $250 worth of shoes at Foot Locker. I have always felt the merchant should be held accountable for that specific fraudulent purchase since I’m sure the purchaser did not find a 60yr old woman to make the purchase for them.

I also made the suggestion that cardholders be given the opportunity to opt-in and turn on a flag to tell the merchant they was supposed to request an ID for the purchase. Discover turned down that idea too because they

So, I am not sure where you got your got your information, but I know that at least Discover was concerned about losing merchants and inconveniencing customers. Perhaps Visa/MC are so big they do not care about losing their merchants or customers but I find it hard to believe that.

It’s extremely naive to routinely hand over extra ID to any cashier, anywhere, anytime… who demands it.

That demand is already proof-positive that the cashier is violating standard credit-card transaction rules — so why automatically trust him with even more of your personal information ?

The other issue is that ID tends to include your address, including your zip code, on the front. You have just handed a stranger ALL of the information needed to make non-present transactions. An address and CVC2 are easy to remember for a few minutes and it is very easy to change the settings on a terminal so that the customer receipt is not truncated. That means the merchant can easily reprint a copy of your receipt that shows your full credit card number, while also having your address and CVC2 code.

There is absolutely no reason for a merchant to ask for ID. If they follow the rules as written they get paid. If you follow the rules and just sign your card, you don’t loose your money.

—

I think most places get away with minimum purchases and fees is because 1) people do not know, 2) its easier just to pay and 3) VISA lacks a central means of reporting. MasterCard on the other hand, who has very similar rules, does have a website were one can report merchant violations.

How do almost all bodega’s get away with it? Is it just that no one knows of the rule and no one reports it?

*snicker*

Normal ‘brick & mortar’ merchants are NOT liable for fraudulent credit-card purchases… as long as those merchants follow standard credit-card-company rules for “Card-Present” transactions. The merchant will get paid — even if a stolen credit-card is used.

However, ‘Liability’ for fraud shifts from the card issuer to the merchant for ‘Card-Not-Present’ sales (mail order, telephone and internet sales). The merchant is generally liable for credit card “Charge-Backs” {bank declines payment}. This reflects the much higher fraud risk with physically separate buyers & merchants.
Despite that, if it was such a bad liability deal for merchants… no merchant would accept a ‘Card-Not-Present’ sale — but clearly they love the profits involved.

The specific discussion here is about clerks demanding additional ID for in-person credit-card sales. Such demands are unnecessary and violate normal credit-card-company contractual requirements with merchants. It also risks ID-theft of honest credit-card customers.

Of course, it’s a 2-way street of risk. There are plenty of crooked or sloppy merchants (especially on the internet) who cheat customers on credit-card sales, or expose customers credit-card & personal information to theft. The news is filled in recent years with massive credit-card data breaches (..like TJX corp.) where tens of millions of consumers had their personal info stolen… due to extreme negligence by “reputable” merchants.

Average folks should always carefully protect their personal information & privacy. Decline any requests for additional ID and politely insist the transaction be completed according to the rules fully agreed to by the merchant.

You said: “But merchants risk nothing accepting a valid credit-card number — the card issuer eats the entire amount of any fraudulent transaction.”

Whoever told you that was seriously misinformed. Issuers hardly ever eat fraud losses – merchants do.

You said: “Merchants/clerks who demand personal ID for credit card purchases… are either ignorant or malicious.”

Ignorant of the rules, perhaps, but certainly not malicious. They are trying to protect themselves and YOU against credit card fraud. If it was your card and it had been stolen from you, you’d be damn glad the merchant asked the guy that stole it for identification. You probably wouldn’t loose any money if you reported the theft quickly but you would have the hassles of phone calls and a good bit of paperwork.

Tom Mahoney, Founder & CEO
Merchant911, LLC
Mercahnt911.org

“”"”"”

Hmmm. Would you have a problem if merchants wanted ID for a cash transaction ?

You have nothing to hide and are eager to help fight fraud, right ?

Merchants are more at risk to counterfeit money; if they accept and try to deposit phony bills– the bank can seize all of it, at a total loss to the merchant.

But merchants risk nothing accepting a valid credit-card number — the card issuer eats the entire amount of any fraudulent transaction.

Merchants/clerks who demand personal ID for credit card purchases… are either ignorant or malicious.

And it’s not only an unnecessary inconvenience to customers, there’s a real threat of identity-theft by crooked merchants or merchant employees– your Drivers License (typically asked for) is an information goldmine for thieves, especially when they also have your complete credit-card info in their hand, too.

Besides, any crook asked for ID on a credit-card purchase… can just say he doesn’t have any other ID with him at the moment — the clerk must complete the transaction anyway under the contractual rules with credit-card companies, unless there’s some other obvious sign of fraud by that crook.

Valid credit-cards ‘are’ personal ID ! That’s the primary reason they were invented by the original “Diners Club” company.

Im sure they have neatly maneuvered the legalese on that one.

The last rule is also interesting. So it seems the cashier can ask for ID, but if you don’t show any ID, the cashier can NOT refuse to accept the card. I could have some fun with that one
(if I sign my card first, that is)

I wonder – what are the penalties if a merchant is reported to have broken any of these rules?

This is kind of circular in that they’re not allowed to check your ID unless you fail to sign your card. Thus, if you write “Check ID” on the card, they have to ask for your ID, ask you to sign the card, and then check the signature against the ID.

Of course, this isn’t how it works in real life. I’ve never had anyone question my lack of a signature. In fact, most merchants are more than happy to check your ID, and many will do it even if you *have* signed your card.

As I said above, I don’t have a problem with merchants wanting to see my ID. They’re just trying to prevent fraud and that, in my opinion, is a good thing.